What's will be like a viable and legal roadmap to Catalonian independence?

0

Catalonian government is a region body government under the Spanish rule. It can't pass laws that are not under their competence and overpass the Spanish Constitution. It doesn't have control of territory, frontiers, taxes and things like that.

It's not a persecuted group under a dictatorship persecution, so it can't ask for international recognition and support.

On the worst case politicians going against Spanish laws can be treated as traitors (see Manning or Snowden in USA).

So, only with the agreement of all Spain, Catalonia can become independent. What would be a reasonable path for Catalonian independence?

Rogelio Triviño

Posted 2017-10-20T08:30:36.220

Reputation: 144

Question was closed 2017-10-20T13:48:11.400

2VTC as too broad/opinion based. Not because I disagree with the given answer, but there could be other possible answers (some people seem to be believe that all that is needed is to sign a paper) and other people may advance other theories (disolution in a "federal" EU, foreign intervention, Spain becomes a "failed state", an earthquake sinks all of the Iberian peninsula outside Catalonia....) more in line with their opinions. – SJuan76 – 2017-10-20T09:38:09.783

It's not a persecuted group under a dictatorship persecution, so it can't ask for international recognition and support. Well, this is arguable. International recognition and support depends on multiple variables and circumstances. – fedorqui – 2017-10-20T09:52:48.367

I am closing this question as primarily opinion-based. This website is not an appropriate platform for idea brainstorming. What you could ask is what paths were proposed by specific relevant politicians. – Philipp – 2017-10-20T13:48:07.923

it seems that is not appropiate to debate the needed law changes for a legal path to catalonia ¿what is the correct place to debate required law changes for catalonian aspirations? – Rogelio Triviño – 2017-10-20T15:43:20.763

StackExchange is not a forum: it's for questions and answers, not debates. You could make a reasonable argument for the subject being sufficiently related to the subject of this site that you could discuss it in chat.

– Peter Taylor – 2017-10-25T09:49:47.133

Answers

2

There are none.

As the OP states, the only way to secede is with authorization of Spain, which requires a reform of the Constitution, which requires:

168th article:

If a complete revision of the Constitution, or a reform affecting preliminary title, second chapter, first section of first title, or second title, it will require a two-thirds majority on both chambers, then dissolving the chambers.

The newly elected chamber will have to ratify this decission, study it and then approving it by two-thirds majority on both chambers.

Once approved, it will be subjected to a referendum by the spanish population.

So is, the Catalan independentist would have to:

  1. Win the Spanish election, attaining 2/3 of the seats on both chambers.
  2. Pass the constitutional reform laws. Win (again) the Spanish election with 2/3 majority on both chambers and ratifying the previous law.
  3. Win an all-Spain referendum on the reform.

So, there's no way to independence which is both legal (according to Spanish laws) and viable - in any sense of the world "viable". It is not even believable.

Rekesoft

Posted 2017-10-20T08:30:36.220

Reputation: 1 897

The question already says that Spain must agree. If your point is that they never will, just say so. – ugoren – 2017-10-20T09:52:06.820

The question asks for "legal" and "viable" solutions. I prove they're mutually exclusive. – Rekesoft – 2017-10-20T09:53:48.687

You assume (IMHO correctly) that Spain won't agree, but you certainly don't prove it. The fact that a legal solution would require Spain to agree is already stated in the question. – ugoren – 2017-10-20T09:57:42.513

According to quantum physics, there's a nonzero possibilty that, given the dual wave/particle nature of atoms, you could run through a wall without colliding with it, passing through instead as if you were a ghost. It's only highly improbable. In layman terms, however, every physicist will say that's just impossible. That's why I'm saying there's no viable legal roadmap to independence, even if spanish law assigns a nonzero possibility to it. – Rekesoft – 2017-10-20T10:03:02.450

Stating a claim isn't proving it, in either physics, in laymen terms, and even social sciences. – ugoren – 2017-10-20T10:29:00.157

"Prove" may be a too definitive word, yes. I meant that I state that, and provide reasons and references (the spanish constitution itself) to sustain my claim. To me, is an exercise of moral dishonestity for the spanish government to say that they don't rule out the pursuit of independence as long as it is done by legal and democratic ways while at the same time they rest assured the legal and democratic way is (and always be) unassailable to the pursuiters. – Rekesoft – 2017-10-20T10:41:24.373

Comments are not for extended discussion, but I have no idea how to move them to chat. I'll write one more and delete the old ones. – ugoren – 2017-10-20T12:07:27.493

Let us continue this discussion in chat.

– ugoren – 2017-10-20T12:07:31.503

-3

  1. Spanish referendum for a Constitutional change:

    • Spanish territorial integrity is not written on stone. A million signatures can initiate a process for a territory secession.

    • The process involve a negotiation for both parts, to write in a document (to be voted) the secession terms. Who retains assets (central government real estate, public servants and offices, gold, armament…) and obligations (debt, pensions, etc.) The partition base must be the GDP percent of the entity going.

    • The document clarifies the citizens' and businesses' legal situation (and obligations) under an hypothetical new country.

    • When there is an agreement on the document to vote, the citizens and inhabitants of this territory to be segregated vote, in a nominative voting, every vote is signed by the issuer.

    • If the vote to leave is over 50%, then the process for creating a new country starts. All the Spanish citizens that vote to leave lost their Spanish (and EU) citizenship. All those that vote No retain their Spanish citizenship and are treated as any Spanish citizen in a foreign country. Until there is a no double taxes treaty with the new country, Spanish citizens must pay taxes in Spain. The new country must ask to join EU, UN, etc. In the meantime, there is a frontier between the EU and the new country.

  2. If the Spanish referendum for a constitutional change, on the previous terms, get over 50%, the Constitution is changed and the detailed process can be initiated.

Rogelio Triviño

Posted 2017-10-20T08:30:36.220

Reputation: 144

3i wouldn't support the "vote is signed by the issuer". Vote is and must be secret, that's the basis for most democracies, nobody should be making lists of good and bad citziens, neither the Losing citizienship, that must be a personal decision ( and spain allows for dual citizienship ). The rest of the terms are reasonable, but you missed that the Constitutional change requires not only 50+1 citziens, but also 75%Senate and Congress. Good answer overall! – CptEric – 2017-10-20T08:36:57.817

2What's your source for these statements? Some of them seem really dubious to me. – Philipp – 2017-10-20T13:19:17.430

this is a roadmap to negotiate, what I put is what I propose as the main points in a constitution reform that have possibilities to win a referendum on all spain to approve them – Rogelio Triviño – 2017-10-20T15:40:13.570

Point 2 is pure wishful thinking – Whimusical – 2017-10-29T00:10:44.753