Confirming if relative received medal in WW1 before death

3

I have this medal record (I blurred some of it) for Sidney Truckle:

enter image description here

We know that Sidney died on 15th August 1915 in Gallipoli, Canakkale, Turkey.

On this "Medal" card it states that he was "Killed in action". Yet the qualifying date is 9th July 1915.

I then looked at this Regiment or Corps when Decoration was earned document (names blurred):

enter image description here

I can see that it originally had the same date (9.7.15) . But then it was crossed out and changed to 7.8.15, even though the remarks state he was killed in action on 15.8.15.

I am trying to build a picture here. Did Sidney actually receive his medal, or did it never happen and it was granted him after his death? I am not sure exactly what this information is telling me.

Andrew Truckle

Posted 2020-11-18T11:10:59.863

Reputation: 1 983

1My belief is that since you already have the images, and simply need interpretation, then "Fair Use" applies and there was no need to blur out the details on the Index Card. Indeed, if your relative had had a common name, it would have been a pointless query. It's not as if you're asking for a look up - if you had been, I wouldn't have put the images in, I'd have just given you the index values to find them yourself. But that's the other way around that I mention solely to show the difference. – AdrianB38 – 2020-11-18T19:35:06.447

I assume you downloaded the card free from the National Archives? In which case https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/copyright/digital-copies-of-documents/ applies @AdrianB38. The information is subject to Fair Use I think http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/version/3/ but not the images.

– ColeValleyGirl – 2020-11-19T10:23:43.453

@ColeValleyGirl - I'm now confused about what those links mean. My personal interpretation of the first link ("private study or research for a non-commercial purpose") would stretch it to cover requests for help in interpretation - as here. But maybe that's just me? See 2nd comment to follow. – AdrianB38 – 2020-11-19T11:44:18.247

(2) The second link is confusing - you've interpreted it as licencing the info but "not the images", if I understand you. The OGL refers to "Use of copyright and database right material expressly made available under this licence (the 'Information') ". And it says "You are free to: copy, publish, distribute and transmit the Information;" I would interpret that as "the Information" in terms of the definition in the OGL, which covers "copyright ... material expressly made available under this licence". That would, in my own view, cover the images because they are the copyright material. – AdrianB38 – 2020-11-19T11:46:40.647

Do we need to take this into the Meta? – AdrianB38 – 2020-11-19T11:49:41.590

Yes, re meta. I agree it's confusing but having dealt with TNA on images before they do seem to make a distinction. Those images were tithe maps -- they were very happy for me to create content based on the information in the maps, but not to reproduce the maps. – ColeValleyGirl – 2020-11-19T12:09:33.247

@AdrianB38 https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/use-of-tna-materials.pdf is explicit: "You must obtain permission from the Image Library of The National Archives for the reproduction of copies of records, which are protected by Crown copyright for publication, on the internet, for broadcasting, for exhibition or for any commercial purpose. "

– ColeValleyGirl – 2020-11-19T12:12:23.067

I know that when I have purchased certificates from my local archive centre I was permitted to add them to my personal family tree because it was not "public". And, I had to add a "watermark" to the image. Since I had to sign up to Fold3 to obtain these medal certificates I was reluctant to expose the full image in a "public" setting. I did not want to get myself or anyone else in trouble. – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-19T12:14:45.130

Andrew, you could have got the medal card free from the TNA... same issues with how much you can (or cannot) show but it wouldn't have cost you a penny. – ColeValleyGirl – 2020-11-19T16:59:47.930

@ColeValleyGirl You mean The National Archives? – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-19T17:02:54.057

Yes, the UK National Archives (TNA is how it is commonly referred too, just as NARA is used for the US equivalent. – ColeValleyGirl – 2020-11-19T17:27:50.483

@ColeValleyGirl OK. Technically, I paid the money because a family member wanted a pension record card which only showed on fold3. And since I had paid for it for 30 days I decided to hunt some more. But thanks for the hint. – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-19T17:36:38.227

Answers

8

You've blurred out the details of what medal it was but looking on Ancestry I can see that it appears to be the 1914–15 Star which was awarded to anybody that served in any theatre between 5 August 1914 and 31 December 1915 who hadn't received the 1914 Star.

It wasn't actually instituted until December 1918 though so it wouldn't have been awarded in his lifetime.

It would have been awarded alongside the British War Medal and the Victory Medal which are also listed on the medal card.

TomH

Posted 2020-11-18T11:10:59.863

Reputation: 4 188

Thank you. I wasn't sure if it was "OK" to display that extra detail that I blurred. Not that it meant anything to me! I appreciate your explanation. Those other medals you refer to, were they in the blurred out bit? – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-18T11:27:49.623

I wonder where his 3 medals went in the end? Back to his parents? Or is that sufficient for a new question or open to too much opinion? – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-18T11:33:10.850

3If they were claimed then it would be by the next of kin - sometimes the index card says where they went but not in this case. The Register of Soldiers Effects on Ancestry looks like it shows his father as receiving his effects and the pension index cards also list him as next of kin. – TomH – 2020-11-18T15:16:29.743

1The top right of the medal index card has a rubber stamped box listing the standard three medals that has then had the roll and and page numbers for his medals written in over the stamp. – TomH – 2020-11-18T15:17:54.927

@TomH - enlisted men didn't need to claim campaign medals in WW1. The Army automatically tried to contact them (else their next of kin) at the last known address first. If the soldier was dead, I've seen a careful process to establish exactly who the next of kin was at that time, that needed sign off by parish priest, magistrate, etc. I've not seen enough to know if that's typical. – AdrianB38 – 2020-11-18T19:27:32.463

2

Re the dates - according to the Long Long Trail website, the 6th and 7th Royal Munster Fusiliers (see RMF in Long, Long Trail) have the same history around Gallipoli, viz:

9 July 1915: embarked at Liverpool and sailed to Gallipoli via Mudros. Landed Suvla Bay 7 August 1915.

So the qualifying date had been entered as embarkation at Liverpool, to start with. If you look at the Medal Roll, the required, correct date is the date of DIS-embarkation ie, the date of landing at Suvla Bay. Hence the correction, I guess. So, a slight clerical error in the regimental office.

AdrianB38

Posted 2020-11-18T11:10:59.863

Reputation: 11 070

Thank you for your additional explanation. Very interesting about the dates. :) – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-19T12:15:35.027

Maybe add to your answer the actual link to the Long Long Trail website? – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-19T12:16:04.793

2Done @AndrewTruckle - IIRC I was on my phone where copying links can sometimes be hard work! – AdrianB38 – 2020-11-19T12:23:32.603

Thanks. Since he was in the 6th Battalion then, this means he arrived in Turkey on 7th August and dies on 15th August. So sad. And means that he travelled from Woodford, Wiltshire up to Liverpool at some point to make this journey. Interesting. – Andrew Truckle – 2020-11-19T12:36:30.737