Do we use "my" or possessive pronouns in such sentences?



"What the hell?!" He said with surprise when he noticed my coming up the water.

Do we use my or possessive pronouns in such sentences? Or should it be

… he noticed me coming up the water"?

F. Walker

Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 499


At EL&U: When is a gerund supposed to be preceded by a possessive pronoun?

– choster – 2015-09-04T13:56:56.050

1@choster, Stoney I don't think so in the end. With verbs of perception we normally have to use an accusative pronoun and an -ing form or plain form of the verb. So we normally say I noticed him leaving the building or I noticed him leave the building. Notice that this is not a normal "gerund" type construction. We could use a gerundy kind of thing here but it is weird to say "I saw his standing in the corner" when you actually want to say "I saw him standing in the corner". And the meaning is slightly different too. – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-04T15:05:04.573

1You should correct your headline. "me" is no possessive pronoun, but a personal pronoun. – rogermue – 2015-09-07T03:55:45.340



In the expression "...when he noticed me coming up the water" the participle clause "coming up the water" has ambiguous relation: was I coming up the water or was he coming up the water at the time of "noticing"? The use of possessive pronoun resolves this ambiguity. "My" only relates to the following noun [phrase] (or gerund in a noun role, as here).

Victor Bazarov

Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 8 285

1Since you asked, I've undeleted it. Yes, there is more to be said about participle clause vs gerund, but I don't feel qualified; besides, the links in the comments by StoneyB and choster are good sources for the information. – Victor Bazarov – 2015-09-05T12:09:29.283

You don't think it's a duplicate, then? – Victor Bazarov – 2015-09-05T12:18:03.753

Victor Bazarov, There is no ambiguity about "coming up the water". If you put a possessive adjective o pronoun before a gerund, the gerund refers to the person denoted by the possessive adjective or pronoun. For example: He insisted on my/me reading the book (Oxford University Press - Practical English Grammar). – Khan – 2015-09-10T07:01:25.190


  • 1 Do you mind my smoking? - more formal
  • 2 Do you mind me smoking? - more everyday speech

The Oxford Guide to English Grammar by John Eastwood (par. 130) formulates it this way:

A subject can come before a gerund.

  • We rely on our neighbours watering the plants while we're away.

  • I dislike people asking me personal questions.

The subject can be possessive, especially when it is a personal pronoun or a name:

  • It's a bit inconvenient your/you coming in late.

  • Do you mind my/me sitting here?

  • I'm fed up with Sarah's/ Sarah laughing at my accent.

The possessive is more formal, and it is less usual in everyday speech.

Remark: I would prefer the formulation " A logical subject can come before a gerund. A noun can be in possessive case or object case. The logical subject can also be a possessive adjective (my, your) or the personal pronoun in object case (me, you, him).

Eastwood adds: At the beginning of a sentence we are more likely to use a possessive

  • Your coming in late is a bit inconvenient.

  • Sarah's laughing at my accent is getting on my nerves.


Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 8 304


What the hell?! He said with surprise when he noticed my coming up the water.

First off, remember that my is a possessive pronoun and me is an objective pronoun.

Second, it's correct grammatically to use either he objective pronoun "me" or the possessive pronoun my" in this sentence. Furthermore, you can also use the bare infinitive (come) after the objective pronoun: He said with surprise when he noticed me come up the water.

Though it's common to use an objective pronoun before a present participle in such sentences in informal English, grammarians usually emphasize the use of a possessive pronoun instead treating the -ing verb as a gerund, especially in formal English. I think it's not true in case of all verbs. In case of verbs of perception such as see, listen to, watch, hear, notice, etc. you can freely use an objective pronoun followed by the -ing form or even the bare infinitive of these verbs, which is equally correct in informal or formal English. In addition, there are some verbs such as find and smell, etc. that are usually followed by objective pronoun + present participle; for example "I found him working in the garden". I found him eating in the kitchen. I think it will be awkward if we say "I found his working in the garden/i found his eating in the kitchen".

Last but not least, according to grammar, the gerund/present participle in such sentences refers to the possessive or objective pronoun, not the subject. Look at the following sentence:

Beware of that dog! I often see it barking at every passer-by.


Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 26 261

It's called an "interrobang" and the use is perfectly fine. It's not formal but it's actually used quite perfectly in this sentence.

– Catija – 2015-09-08T16:14:27.580

Catija, Thanks for correcting me. This has added to my knowledge. – Khan – 2015-09-08T17:02:05.427



1. He noticed my coming up the water.

2. He noticed me coming up the water.

Both the sentences are grammatically correct. Yet the objective form is more common, for, in my opinion, it's much more logical. You notice the person doing it. Even if you want to see their action you will see them doing it.

[It would make more sense if you read it after going through the LONG ANSWER -

He noticed my coming up the water.

Here my coming up the water is a GERUND PARTICIPLE and my is the subject of the GERUND PARTICIPLE. Here the GERUND PARTICIPLE - my coming up the water - is a direct object of the verb - notice.

He noticed me coming up the water.

Here me is the direct object of the verb - catch and coming up the water is just a second complement.

But using my here is not that common.]


Before we discuss further we need to know about GERUND PARTICIPLES. A verb in gerund participles ends with -ing. verb+ing doesn't only occur in gerund participles. Let's look at the following examples -

3. She had witnessed the breaking of the seal. [Gerundial Noun]

4. Their is no point in breaking the seal. [Gerund Participle form of verb]

5. They were entertaining the troops. [Gerund Participle form of verb]

6. an entertaining show [Present-Participle Adjective]

Now we need to distinguish the subject of the Gerund Participle. Consider the following examples -

7. I regretted his leaving the firm.

Here his is the subject of the Gerund Participle.

When a pronoun is the subject of a Gerund Participle, either subjective or objective form occurs.

8. I enjoyed his reading of the poem. [Using him is incorrect here. reading is a noun. So subjective form required]

9. I caught him reading my mail. [Using his is incorrect here. Him is the object of the verb - caught. So we need the objective form. reading my mail is just a second complement]

10. I remember his/him reading my mail. [Subject of Gerund-Participle. So both form of pronoun is correct]

Now notice that both in sentence #9 and #10 this part occurs - reading my mail. But in #9 only objective form is correct, and in #10 both forms are correct. It depends on the verb, on which verb allows which complements.


Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 10 615

Your (4) is non-grammatical. Did you mean "There is no point in *breaking* the seal"? – Victor Bazarov – 2015-09-13T13:22:35.367

@VictorBazarov Sorry my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. I edited it. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T13:25:02.843

@Man_From_India So is the verb NOTICE like ENJOY, CATCH or REMEMBER? – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-13T13:40:43.827

@Araucaria I don't think so. Enjoy can only take subjective form. Catch only takes objective form. And remember takes both forms. Notice can take both forms as I mentioned earlier. If it takes subjective form in the OP's sentence it notices about the action, and if it takes the objective form it notices the person. But my view is that objective form is more common at least in OP's sentence. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T13:50:54.857

@Man_From_India You can't say "I enjoyed his reading the poem"? Hmmm, your post shows a lot of promise - but is him in noticed him coming up the water the Subject of a gerund participle or the Object of the verb NOTICE? – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-13T13:59:17.177

1@Araucaria I enjoyed his reading the poem is correct. In noticed him coming up the water, hm is the object of the verb - notice, and coming up the water is the second complement. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:02:52.683

1@Man_From_India So that would seem to be an important part of the answer, maybe ... ;) – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-13T14:13:11.757

@Man_From_India And his coming up the water would be a DO in I noticed his coming up the water, right? – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-13T14:17:05.887

1@Araucaria That is exactly what I think :-) – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:19:39.443

1@Man_From_India (Great minds, as they say ...) Hmmm. That would kinda make his coming up the water just one of those sentences where we use a g-p instead of an NP as a DO - which is kind of rare in general. Whereas the two complements in him coming up the water would be part of the normal expected complementation pattern for perception verbs like NOTICE or SEE ... perhaps .... hmmm interesting :-) – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-13T14:22:11.983

@Araucaria Oh no problem. I am expecting to see a better answer than this one ;-) – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:28:35.903

1@Araucaria And thanks for the upvote...Reading a reference book and finding the exact section is pretty difficult task especially if it's CGEL. An upvote is the reward I accept for that effort :P Thanks!!! – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:30:36.257

@Araucaria I sec...I have bookmarked it. I will tell you the page numbers. I don't have that Oxford book. Does that book say the similar thing? Or does it take a different approach? – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:35:34.927

@Araucaria Page No. 1187, and few subsequent pages in CGEL. Lots of things are written there. It is really helpful. All my example sentences are taken directly from there. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:37:06.980

@Man_From_India Oh, thanks, I'll keep those, but I read most of it. Took hours! It's all there after you trawl thourgh it, but OMEG is a bit clearer and more concise on this, imo. – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-13T14:40:54.573

@Araucaria Just curious to know does OMEG says anything about bare noun phrase used as adverbials? I haven't yet found any good materials regarding this topic. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T14:44:09.377

@Araucaria That would be very helpful. Please look for it at a time convenient to you. And please share the learning as I don't have that book. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-13T15:11:10.157

@Man_From_India Are you going to edit some of those points into the post so I can give you the bounty? :) – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-14T10:44:18.043

Kindly use chat for continuous conversation. @Araucaria + MFI – Maulik V – 2015-09-14T10:49:44.713

@MaulikV This is very specific discussion relating directly to the improvement of the post. I'll clean up when the post is finished. – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-14T10:51:30.223

1@Araucaria I am on travel now. Please give me at least 2 hours :( I will edit it. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-14T13:38:28.223

@Man_From_India You there? – Araucaria - Not here any more. – 2015-09-14T18:27:04.300

@Araucaria hi... Sorry I was offline then :( tell me. – Man_From_India – 2015-09-15T03:34:58.957


He said with surprise when he noticed my coming up the water.

-ing words are verbals - i.e. technically nouns.

Any noun, including verbals, can be preceded with a possessive pronoun indicating who it belongs to. So "my coming" is equivalent to saying "the coming of mine" or "coming of me".

As verbs can have subjects and objects, so can verbals.

Object pronouns that precede the verbal are used to indicate the subject of gerunds or participles (-ing words) that are subject complements. (Object pronouns that follow the verbal are the verbal's direct/indirect object.)

Him going to the park pissed me off.

There is nothing I like better than her being gone.

Them giving her two dollars made my day.

Them giving him it was all that was needed to make everyone happy (This is correct but could be confusing if someone is not following conversation closely - this sounds better: Them giving it to him was all that was needed ...)

It seems me throwing it away was what was needed.

So both are correct.

My coming emphasizes the act itself - you are saying it's more important that he noticed the coming in and of itself.

Me coming gives equal importance to the subject and act - he noticed not just someone coming, but you coming specifically.


Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 31 841


On the one hand, we have a person.  On the other, we have an action.  Either of these might be noticed.

If we want to talk about a noticed action, the simplest way is to describe that action with a noun:

He noticed the arrival.

This simple noun needs a determiner, and there are several determiners that could make sense.  The noticed thing might be "the arrival", "an arrival", "this arrival", "my arrival" and so on. 

This works.  However, it doesn't always work very well if we want to further describe that action.  For example, we could say "He noticed my arrival from the water," but that would be ambiguous.  The phrase "from the water" can modify the verb "noticed" as easily as it can the noun "arrival". 

Instead of using a simple noun, we can use a gerund: 

He noticed my coming up the water. 

The verb "to come" licenses the preposition "up".  The verb "to notice" does not.  Our earlier ambiguity is resolved. 

The gerund "coming" is not an exact match for the noun "arrival".  The noun "approach" might be a better fit.  That doesn't matter here.  Your original model sentence uses the gerund, and we have to assume that "coming" expresses the intended meaning. 

This clause has a subject, a verb, and a direct object.  The complete direct object is "my coming up the water".  The keyword of that phrase is the gerund "coming".  Both "my" and "up the water" modify this gerund.  The coming does happen to be mine and the coming does happen to be up the water, but it is the coming itself which is the thing that was said to be noticed. 

If we want to talk about a noticed person, one simple way is to describe that person with a pronoun: 

He noticed me. 

This is the same simple structure as before -- a subject, a verb, and a direct object.  The thing that is noticed is the person -- me. 

We can modify this pronoun in a number of ways.  The simplest way is to use simple adjectives:  "He noticed little old me."  Another option is to use a prepositional phrase:  "He noticed me in the water."  Again, a prepositional phrase at the end of the clause can be ambiguous.  "In the water" could be my location, or it could be the location of the act of noticing (and, by implication, the subject's location). 

We can modify the pronoun "me" with a participle or participial phrase: 

He noticed me coming up the water. 

In this case, the form "coming" is the so-called present participle.  It is a non-finite verb form.  Finite verb forms have tense and form predicates.  Non-finite forms have no tense and do not (at least, do not necessarily) form predicates.  Participles and their phrases are commonly used to modify nouns and pronouns -- the same role that adjectives and prepositional phrases can take. 

In English, the present participle and the gerund have identical forms.  There is no way to distinguish between them without context.  Just as participles can fulfill the roles of adjectives and adverbs, gerunds can fulfill the same roles as nouns and pronouns. 

The same thing cannot be said of the genitive pronoun "my" and the objective pronoun "me".  The word "my" must modify a noun or noun-like thing.  The word "me" must be an object.

In the original clause, the thing that is mentioned as being noticed is the action of coming.  The gerund "coming" is the direct object, with "my" and "up the water" each modifying that object.  In your paraphrased clause, the direct object is the person.  The participle "coming" modifies the direct object "me", and the prepositional phrase in turn modifies the participle.  

For the clause in question, both forms work.  If I am coming and you notice that fact, then you are noticing both a person and an action.  In that situation, it's hard to do one without doing both.  The distinction between them is a question of style or emphasis.  It is not a question of grammatical correctness. 

Further context might make one emphasis more sensible than another. Consider these: 

He noticed me coming up the water and he waved to me. 
He noticed my coming up the water and he tried to stop it. 

Noticing a person can be a sensible reason for greeting a person.  For the first sentence, I prefer "me" as the direct object of "noticed".  Noticing an action can be a sensible reason for interfering with that action.  For the second sentence, I prefer "coming" as the direct object of "noticed". 

I could have paired these clauses in the other way, but then my intended meanings -- the relationships between the clauses of each sentence -- would have been less clear.

Gary Botnovcan

Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 12 044


Of course if a gerund is preceded by pronoun it should be a possessive pronoun:

He noticed my coming up not me


Posted 2015-09-04T08:27:54.890

Reputation: 1

Welcome to ELL! This question is actually quite old: if you click on he 'newest' tab, you will find more recent questions. It has some pretty comprehensive answers already: how can you persuade people that your answer is correct? It helps if you provide links to references that back up your opinion. – JavaLatte – 2016-09-14T15:31:07.493