The meaning of "up" in the phrase "up in London"

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He'd been to a lecture the previous night up in London.

I looked it up in a dictionary. 'Up' as adverb has many meanings. Would you tell me if the meaning I chose is applied to the sentence?

From Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary:

chiefly British : to or at a more important place (such as a large city or university) He went up to London. Their daughter is up at Oxford.

JYJ

Posted 2019-03-02T18:14:06.407

Reputation: 497

1What dictionary?? – Lambie – 2019-03-02T21:41:32.483

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@Lambie http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/up

– None – 2019-03-02T21:51:14.840

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@Lambie https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/up_1?q=up defines it similarly, it seems: "to or at an important place, especially a large city". It gives these examples: 1. We're going up to New York for the day. 2. (British English, formal) His son's up at Oxford (= Oxford University). The Cambridge one follows suit: "UK towards a more important place, especially a city", How often do you go up to London? She comes up from her village about once a month on the train.

– None – 2019-03-02T22:04:08.470

1Really good question. I am wondering if we say "down" if we go to or are at a less important place. – repomonster – 2019-03-02T23:42:36.607

1@userr2684291 We're going up to New York means: the person is south of New York. I know because I lived in NY and south of NY and now lived north of it and would say today: go down to NY. – Lambie – 2019-03-04T16:57:37.377

2@Lambie Due to explicitly stated dialect-dependent connotations, I'm not sure the same is necessarily true for speakers of British dialects. Your usage is indisputable, but as it already fits another definition, it's not evidence of anything in particular – that is, unless you're claiming (and can back it up) that speakers of British English don't use the word up in the described sense and that the sentence at issue cannot reasonably be construed in that sense.. – None – 2019-03-05T02:00:31.897

Answers

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Yes, that's the correct meaning to choose, at least I assume so, not having looked at the same dictionary.

I'm not sure their description is entirely right, but yes, as a relative pseudo-direction between places, it can mean going somewhere that's more important, central, prestigious, metropolitan, cosmopolitan, desirable, more of a destination. Something somehow more, better, or more important in some way.

It's complicated by the fact that compass directions also impact choices of word, but when it comes to somewhere like London the "it's the big city so it's up" tends to override it for most of the country. From where I live, I would say "up" to Carlisle, and "down" to Manchester, but probably break about 50/50 between "up" and "down" for London, despite it being far, far south of me (as distances in England go). But anyone in south-east England, or the east of England, and I would guess (with some trepidation) the Midlands as well, will usually refer to London as "up".

Consider the Oxford definitions, which include both "a place perceived as higher" (as in "up to the shops"), but also specifically "towards or in the capital or a major city". Cambridge has, as variants of the same sense, both "towards the north" (with an American example, in fact), and, as a specifically UK usage, "towards a more important place, especially a city".

SamBC

Posted 2019-03-02T18:14:06.407

Reputation: 21 301

1So we say "I am up at London" and then "I am down at St Davids"? Weird... – repomonster – 2019-03-02T23:41:40.393

2@repomonster: Yes, in my experience people would say that, though people are more likely to say "up" for London than "down" for other places. It's asymmetric.

People in the other home nations (meaning the other parts of the UK) are, I think, less likely to refer to London this way than people in England, also in my experience, though that experience is more limited. – SamBC – 2019-03-02T23:48:20.207

2I live in Bristol; I might equally credibly say I am going up to London, Birmingham, or Manchester, but definitely down to Cornwall. – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-03T00:02:23.390

1Well, whether we think of "down" as to do with south, or to do with status/prestige, Cornwall is probably down from pretty much everywhere else... – SamBC – 2019-03-03T00:16:54.713

1@MichaelHarvey I tried and have apparently failed to make the same exact point. And it has earned me several dvs. I also tried to show that this is a general thing in English and loosely geographic. As they say in French, let's not be more royal than the king. – Lambie – 2019-03-03T14:56:54.400

2@Lambie: Latitude of Bristol: 51.4545° N. Latitude of London: 51.5074° N. Given the imprecision of this (cities aren't points on a map), Bristol is not meaningfully south of London. Saying London is "up" from Bristol isn't supporting the idea that it's all about north/south. People in Hertfordshire will also say "up" for London, and every part of Hertfordshire is strictly and distinctly north of London. – SamBC – 2019-03-03T15:12:05.253

1I just added some more dictionary references, by the by. – SamBC – 2019-03-03T15:18:21.793

1

Historically on British railways, the "up" train goes to London or another city that is larger or more important than the starting point, and the "down" train is the return journey.

Hence

He'd been to a lecture the previous night up in London.

means he went there from out of town, but other than that has no geographical significance.

We also say

Have the students come up yet?

No they are still down.

to distinguish between term time and vacation.

Weather Vane

Posted 2019-03-02T18:14:06.407

Reputation: 11 533

1Weird situations when one railway met another, e.g. where the Down track of the Midland met, end-to-end, the Up track of the Great Northern. Still preserved today. – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-02T21:19:00.877

1This one was new to me. Interesting! Though that may have followed from the meaning that whichever dictionary this is suggests, or have led to it. – SamBC – 2019-03-02T21:33:18.800

1I doubt you would say "up to London", if you were in Manchester. He went up to London on the [time] train. He came down on the [time] train. – Lambie – 2019-03-02T21:44:45.920

3@Lambie, you may doubt what you please to, but I live north of London and I go "up to London". – Weather Vane – 2019-03-02T21:45:29.210

1Apart from having visited England many times, I hear this up/down business all the time on British series/movies, and in books, etc. And in fact, one used to hear (and in some circles probably still hear),come out: When did he come out to Kenya? The Brits in Brazil used to say it, also. A hold-over from colonialism, no doubt. In any event, your fellow countryman below does not seem to agree with you. – Lambie – 2019-03-02T21:48:44.353

2"Up to London" considerably predates the railways; it is found in much 18th and 17th century writing. I think the railway usage was derived from that, rather than the other way round. – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-02T22:04:08.193

1Also, "up" and "down" in railway usage is pretty much unknown among "normals" as we who love railways think of the uninitiated. – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-02T22:24:07.837

1@MichaelHarvey I have noticed that modern renderings of "Pussycat pussycat where have you been? I’ve been up to London to visit the Queen." omit the up but the metre doesn't work as well without it. – Weather Vane – 2019-03-02T23:36:36.197

1" She schulde up to London and calle uppon her matre there." The Paston Letters, 1462 – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-03T00:06:36.820

1@Michael Harvey Yes, up to London would predate railways as the same would apply to getting there by horse and carriage, wouldn't it? :) In any event, there is no mention of railways in the text. – Lambie – 2019-03-03T14:52:23.943

1@Lambie - there is no mention of railways in the text. However, some people above, (and a Google search finds others) seem to think that the 'up to London' thing derives from railway terminology. It doesn't. – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-03T15:52:59.990

1@MichaelHarvey Right, thanks. Why don't you inform Weather Vane? :) – Lambie – 2019-03-03T15:57:45.367

1@Michael Harvey I did not intend to say that it derives from the railway usage, I was simply giving an example that occurred to me. It didn't find it from a search. – Weather Vane – 2019-03-03T15:58:02.317

1@Lambie I did not downvote your answer, though obviously I don't agree. I rarely downvote answers and absolutely never when I have posted one of my own. I also rarely comment on other answers when I have posted one. – Weather Vane – 2019-03-03T16:07:45.267

1I didn't downvote it either. – Michael Harvey – 2019-03-03T16:10:52.040

-3

The sentence "He'd been to a lecture the previous night up in London" is fine for general/spoken English. But I would not used it for formal/business English because it is very casual.

Up can mean higher in prominence or stature. Since London is a capital city of England it has that status.

Also major cities have more money and educated populace by its nature. Another phrase that can relate to education is "up in clouds" meaning there are smart people just thinking of theories or plans.

Learning English is not just about learning about the dictionary. The dictionary is only a guide. Usage of a word is BEST learned by continually engaging with English speakers.

Hope this little advice helps you on the road to learning proper English.

Vincenzo

Posted 2019-03-02T18:14:06.407

Reputation: 31

2It is idiomatic. It is not about formality or informality. – Lambie – 2019-03-02T21:42:17.683

3It's incredibly common in pretty much any register except the most formal, written stuff. You wouldn't expect to see it in a major government report or similar, nor in a contract, but even in a formal presentation it will be used fairly frequently. – SamBC – 2019-03-02T22:08:12.110

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That is incorrect. You might see it history writing or journalism or anywhere else where go up/go down, come up, come down is used with places. It is not *necessarily* either formal or informal. https://books.google.com/books?id=uh9JAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=UK+government+%2B+%22went+up+to+London%22&source=bl&ots=tDQ5rs5r6i&sig=ACfU3U3kN1x3LId3gI8Tw1JDgvAwEZIslA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifvtXggengAhVLdt8KHco9AsgQ6AEwB3oECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=UK%20government%20%2B%20%22went%20up%20to%20London%22&f=false It is, however, idiomatic in English.

– Lambie – 2019-03-04T17:31:07.103

1I get paid everyday as an auditor to not write "up in the warehouse". Idiomatics are not used in business or formal English. – Vincenzo – 2019-03-04T17:59:35.360

-4

Sample sentence: He'd been to a lecture the previous night up in London.

That means the person was south of London.

This is not chiefly British; it's chiefly geographical and used in all varieties of English and locations to refer to one's location at a particular time.

If I am south of New York (city or state), I can say: up in New York.

If I am north of New York (city or state), I can say: down in New York.

If your child is at Harvard College, you can say: She's up at Harvard. If you live south of the university.

In fact, we often say up and down and sometimes even over for locations when speaking.

  • Where's John? He's over at the office.

Lambie

Posted 2019-03-02T18:14:06.407

Reputation: 26 929

2That's the generally accepted meaning in the U.S. but how can you be so sure there's not another meaning in Britain, especially when a dictionary is cited and gives examples that are obviously British? I have heard Brits saying exactly the same thing. – dwilli – 2019-03-02T20:12:05.380

1While we might, here in Britain, say "up north" and "down south", when it comes to cities and so on we usually use "up" more in line with the questioner's supposition. We also say "down in the country", regardless of in which direction the bit of countryside in question might be. ("Out in the country" is also common, possibly more common now). – SamBC – 2019-03-02T21:26:43.433

1(The "down for south" thing happens as well, so the two factors interfere - living in the north of England, I would be about as likely to refer to London as "up" as I would "down"). – SamBC – 2019-03-02T21:29:59.430

1@dwilli Of course, Brits would say this. So would Americans, Australians and New Zealanders, Canadians and many other speakers of idiomatic English.//Please, can stick to the question and not get sidetracked with other expressions? – Lambie – 2019-03-02T21:39:59.970

2We don't know that the speaker in the example was south of London, so we don't know that Lambie's understanding is more likely to be accurate than that cited by OP and several others. – Funny that Lambie's comment brings in a railway metaphor! – Anton Sherwood – 2019-03-02T22:05:36.903

1I do not buy that this is about railway travel. Ergo, up and down is loosely geographic. And I don't buy that a Brits traveling by rail from, say, Manchester to London, would say up to London. All these downvotes are misplaced. – Lambie – 2019-03-03T14:55:48.817

1@Lambie: You might like to take it up with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries. And, judging from my experience, most native speakers in Hertfordshire and Essex. – SamBC – 2019-03-03T15:21:43.593