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I just made a minor grammar correction on Travel SE, and another user said the grammar correction was unnecessary.
The original text was
Another factor--sometimes life happens and you can't fly. In the old days you could simply sell your ticket to someone else, now you either have to eat a hefty change fee or lose it outright. That's money in their pockets that they didn't used to get.
It was corrected to:
Another factor--sometimes life happens and you can't fly. In the old days you could simply sell your ticket to someone else, now you either have to eat a hefty change fee or lose it outright. That's money in their pockets that they didn't use to get.
- Was this grammatical correction an improvement?
- Was the original text grammatically correct?
- Is the edited text grammatically correct?
1I find the phrase clumsy, it may have been better to change it to "... they didn't previously get". – – AdrianHHH – 2016-08-16T10:44:00.670
Related: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/8816/whats-the-negation-of-i-used-to-be-surely-not-i-didnt-used-to-be
– Damkerng T. – 2016-08-16T11:09:39.1001It seems
didn't used to
is acceptable only in American English, withdidn't use to
being the only correct form in British English. But [citation needed]. – RJFalconer – 2016-08-16T13:46:12.1977The crucial point is that the verb is "use" - that is the infinitive form. When a verb follows an auxiliary verb like "did", as in the OP's example, it has to be an infinitive, which is why "use" is correct, not the past tense form "used" – BillJ – 2016-08-16T14:03:52.557
3As it's so vague, why not change the phraseology to one that is absolute. The phrase is not particularly good English as it stands, either way. – Tim – 2016-08-16T16:27:48.490
7@RJFalconer- I am British, and as far as I'm concerned, didn't used to is the only way. – JavaLatte – 2016-08-16T16:34:32.150
4The did carries the past tense. You don't need it twice just as I wouldn't say: I did brushed my teeth this morning. – shawnt00 – 2016-08-16T16:48:22.103
2@JavaLatte On what grounds to you make that assertion? – BillJ – 2016-08-16T17:33:12.900
4@Tim, didn't use(d) to is informal. As I mention in my answer, there is a correct, formal, undisputed way of saying the same thing, namely used not to. – JavaLatte – 2016-08-16T17:40:29.167
1@Fiksdal the problem with "didn't used to" is that "did" is an auxiliary verb, and auxiliaries always require the verb that follows to be an infinitive. "Use" is infinitive and hence is fine but "used" is past tense. You see what I mean? – BillJ – 2016-08-16T17:52:58.540
1@BillJ I personally tend to agree with you. I think "didn't use to" sounds way better. But English is only my second language, and the experts seem to disagree. This is much less trivial than I had initially thought, I wish I had posted it at ELU. – Revetahw says Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-16T17:56:21.387
1@JavaLatte That is very interesting and all, but as almighty OP of this question I am placing you under arrest for lack of compliance. – Revetahw says Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-16T17:57:25.383
1@Fiksdal Well, the basic grammar is quite straightforward really. There can be no disputing that the verb is "use". That is the basic/infinitive form. All auxiliaries must be followed by an infinitival verb-form ("use", not "used"). The same applies with the modal auxiliaries: in "I can go" and "You must eat", "go" and "eat" are infinitivals. There is no possibility of using any other verb-form, which is precisely why "I didn't used to smoke" is wrong. – BillJ – 2016-08-16T18:07:07.793
2Where is the value to a new learner of English in this protracted slap fight? – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T07:20:11.690
@P.E.Dant When I posted this I didn't know it was such a nuanced area. I thought it would be too basic for ELU. If I would have known what the responses would be, I would certainly have asked it at ELU. I suppose it's too late to migrate it now? I have posted about this on Meta.
– Revetahw says Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T11:48:16.1972@P.E.D I disagree with the close reason. Learners don't want to see all this argument, but it's not the question's fault. Javalatte's answer demonstrates that this question can get an appropriate answer, so where's the benefit in closing it? – M.A.R. – 2016-08-17T13:47:28.040
3@JavaLatte I disagree. "used to not" would be at least as common, if not more so, at least in my experience. "I used to not like pistachio ice cream, but I've acquired a taste for it" sounds much more natural to me than "I used not to like..." – Kevin – 2016-08-17T16:35:12.703
@Fiksdal "Nuanced" is a very charitable characterization! – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T16:51:02.920
1@DEAD Considered and withdrawn – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T16:51:46.300
@P.E.Dant The subject itself is nuanced. People make it contentious. – Revetahw says Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T16:53:11.050
2This brouhaha has been in progress for decades. Everyone should simply adopt Lawler's proposal, quoted below by FumbleFingers: This should be considered a bug in the orthographic system. Then all should move on to a question which is amenable to a clear outcome. As it is, at the end of the day we have two groups shouting "Is too!" "Is not!" "Is too you big poop head!" "Is not you really big poop head!" – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T17:31:16.590
1Well, this is one where you can't necessarily trust native speakers because both would be pronounced the same way. – Casey – 2016-08-17T17:42:04.137
@Casey That boils the entire business down to a manageable size. Well said. – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T17:50:33.577
@Fiksdal I haven't checked, but I'd be very surprised if this question hasn't been beaten to death with pitchforks at ELU already. This has been a favorite subject for years, and language enthusiasts throw it back and forth from time to time, sort of as a way to keep in shape, like boxers with a heavy ball. – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T17:58:22.943
1@Fiksdal By the way, I've always avoided the problem entirely. I'm one of those who has always said "used not to" and this has served me well. – P. E. Dant Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T18:07:36.040
@BillJ I don't understand your "must be followed by an infinitive" assertion. "use" is not the final verb here; "get" is, and "to get" is already in the infinitive form either way. (Also, I believe you mean that modal verbs must be followed by the infinitive form. Note also that on that page, "used", but not "use", is considered modal--which is how I would view the usage in this question as well.)
– Kyle Strand – 2016-08-17T18:16:12.6371@BillJ Upon re-reading, perhaps I should have stopped after saying I don't understand, rather than made a poor attempt at trying to understand without just asking for clarification. – Kyle Strand – 2016-08-17T18:22:08.237
@KyleStrand Use : "I didn't use to go" :: Want : "I didn't want to go" – Casey – 2016-08-17T18:54:17.857
@P.E.Dant Yes, that works. – Revetahw says Reinstate Monica – 2016-08-17T18:57:50.557
@Kyle Strand Are you okay on this now? – BillJ – 2016-08-18T06:21:47.040
@BillJ No; do you have a reference for your statement about auxiliary verbs? – Kyle Strand – 2016-08-18T06:44:52.350
1@KyleStrand It is a fundamental rule of English grammar that the auxiliary verb "do" must be followed by an infinitive verb-form. Surely you are not disputing that? – BillJ – 2016-08-18T06:59:02.460
1Just avoid "used to" in written English. This sentence could be written much more clearly as That's money in their pockets they didn't get in the past. – Ben Voigt – 2016-08-18T14:53:15.350
@BillJ I wasn't really disputing anything, just asking for clarification. You said "All auxiliaries must be followed by an infinitival verb-form" (emphasis mine), and I don't think I've ever heard that stated as a rule. I won't dispute that "do" does indeed require the infinitive form. – Kyle Strand – 2016-08-18T16:44:15.443
1@KyleStrand Okay, that's fair comment. To clarify, it's the modal auxiliaries and auxiliary "do" that require infinitival complements. "Be" and "have" as auxiliaries don't of course. I should have made that clearer. – BillJ – 2016-08-18T16:51:22.513
@BillJ Confusion eliminated! – Kyle Strand – 2016-08-18T17:32:03.277